Curse

Fairbo · Jan 19, 2007, 07:50 PM // 19:50

Before anyone posts to this thread make sure you read this thread http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...61#post2458861 so you know where this all comes from. I'm going to repeat a lot of the stuff I said in the other thread just because it's on page 4 and will probly get lost sooner or later and because this should really be in this section.

There is currently a problem in the PvE aspect of the game with the warriors and their in-ability to be tanks/meatshields with the current AI system and it should be addressed. In the current AI the enemies just ignore any warrior and go directly to the casters. That's typical human AI and what I do all the time when I play. I don't have a problem with that. My problem is that there is no way for me to "pull" that agro off the casters. Instead I have to hope that my caster can stay alive long enough for my group to kill the enemies on them.

Yes there are multiple ways you can play a warrior and at times I WANT to be a meatshield. I should at least have the skillset as a warrior to be that. Most of the time I'm set up for pure offence (Warrior damage is pathetic) because nobody cares to hit me until last.

Here's my solution to the problem:
Leave the AI alone. I think it's fine, but annoying. Instead make 2 new skills, one regular skill and the other an Elite. Of course there will need to be modifications to the skill idea's I've just created but this will help a warrior be a "tank/meatshield" if they chose to be one.

Original skills
Skill Name: Taunt
Type: Skill
Attribute: Tactics
Casting cost: 10 energy (making it harder for warriors to spam)
Cast time: Instant
Recharge time: 5 seconds
Description: For 1.....10 seconds target creature focuses all their attacks on you.

Skill Name: "You're All Mine"
Type: Elite Shout
Attribute: Tactics
Casting Cost: 5 addrenaline
Description: For 1.....6 seconds 1....4 creatures within earshot focus all their attacks on you.

Skills with counciler123's suggestions
Skill Name: Taunt
Type: Skill
Attribute: Tactics
Casting cost: 10 energy (making it harder for warriors to spam)
Cast time: Instant
Recharge time: 5 seconds
Description: Target creature now targets you instead of it's current target.

Skill Name: "You're All Mine"
Type: Elite Shout
Attribute: Tactics
Casting Cost: 5 addrenaline
Description: 1....4 creatures within earshot now target you instead of their current target.

Q: What about PVP? How will that work against players?
A: Simple, if a warrior taunt's you, your target is locked to that enemy for all offencive attacks for x seconds. You won't be able to switch targets unless it's to an Ally. You would still be able to cast enchantments, heal, etc... to your Allies, you just won't be able to attack anyone except the enemy that taunted you.
counciler123's suggestion
A: Simple, if a warrior taunt's you, your target is changed to the taunter. You can then switch targets again if you wish.

Q: What about players in mid-cast when you "Taunt" them?
A: The spell the player was casting will still hit it's original target, but spells after that will target the taunter.

In all reality though, just exactly how much of a beating can a warrior take all at once and have the monks keep up the heals? Well, if you are in the high end, not much at all. 2 spikes from an ele, 1 warrior w/ hundred blades, and a necro w/ weaken armor will destroy that warrior. 6 seconds of that w/o a prot monk and your toast.

In my opinion the Taunt skill is a little weak but it would be effective w/o being overpowering. Since it has a 10 energy cost it will be hard for a warrior to spam that to keep all the agro off the group. SInce it can't be spammed the player would be required to use it appropriatly. If one of my casters is getting pounded on by 3 enemies, I'll Taunt one of them off then depending on how much energy I have after the 5 second recharge I'll try to taunt another one off. That still leaves 5 seconds of 2 enemies pounding on a caster. which still may be more than enough to kill them. You mis-manage your energy and you won't be as effective.

I think the Elite Shout is a little too powerfull in the description I've created but that's also why it's an "Elite" skill. But there are already counters out there for the Elite Shout for those of you who think this would be too powerfull, How about the necro "Well of Silence"? Cast that around a warrior and the warrior can't use shouts, shutting down their ability to do AoE Taunts.

Dr Strangelove · Jan 19, 2007, 08:08 PM // 20:08

/massively notsigned

Seriously, this is a terrible idea. There's no reason to build flaws into the AI, it stifles builds, player intelligence and game challenge. Grab your axe and start beating the bejeezus out of things, don't stand around with dolyak signet and mending wondering why nothing touches you.

DeanBB · Jan 19, 2007, 08:10 PM // 20:10

No, there's no place for this in GW. I wouldn't want such a skill used against me in PvE either.

Xenex Xclame · Jan 19, 2007, 08:15 PM // 20:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fairbo

There is currently a problem in the PvE aspect of the game with the warriors and their in-ability to be tanks/meatshields with the current AI system and it should be addressed. In the current AI the enemies just ignore any warrior and go directly to the casters. That's typical human AI and what I do all the time when I play. I don't have a problem with that. My problem is that there is no way for me to "pull" that agro off the casters. Instead I have to hope that my caster can stay alive long enough for my group to kill the enemies on them.

No thank you, cause then we would go back to the warrior runs in endure/defy/dolyak stands there for 5 seconds, casters run in monk heals and eles nuke boom 5 seconds later all monsters dead, lets repeat on next mob.
Instead of making a meathshield your teammates should be aware that they need to do theyr part too besides only brining damage skills.
You have 2 eles in the group?Make one damage make the other bring wards or freezing skills or why not blured vision?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fairbo

Yes there are multiple ways you can play a warrior and at times I WANT to be a meatshield. I should at least have the skillset as a warrior to be that. Most of the time I'm set up for pure offence (Warrior damage is pathetic) because nobody cares to hit me until last.

No comment...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fairbo

Here's my solution to the problem:
Leave the AI alone. I think it's fine, but annoying. Instead make 2 new skills, one regular skill and the other an Elite. Of course there will need to be modifications to the skill idea's I've just created but this will help a warrior be a "tank/meatshield" if they chose to be one.

First you say to leave the AI alone then you say add skills and make it that when the skill is used the AI targets that target?Tell me how to do that without changing the AI.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fairbo

Q: What about PVP? How will that work against players?
A: Simple, if a warrior taunt's you, your target is locked to that enemy for all offencive attacks for x seconds. You won't be able to switch targets unless it's to an Ally. You would still be able to cast enchantments, heal, etc... to your Allies, you just won't be able to attack anyone except the enemy that taunted you.

No, just no......

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fairbo

In all reality though, just exactly how much of a beating can a warrior take all at once and have the monks keep up the heals? Well, if you are in the high end, not much at all. 2 spikes from an ele, 1 warrior w/ hundred blades, and a necro w/ weaken armor will destroy that warrior. 6 seconds of that w/o a prot monk and your toast.

Wrong, one monk is more then enough to keep one warrior taking heavy dmg from dieying, lets see, healing seed, Shield of Aborbtion, Protective Spirit, just to mention a few.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fairbo

I think the Elite Shout is a little too powerfull in the description I've created but that's also why it's an "Elite" skill. But there are already counters out there for the Elite Shout for those of you who think this would be too powerfull, How about the necro "Well of Silence"? Cast that around a warrior and the warrior can't use shouts, shutting down their ability to do AoE Taunts.

A skill having a counter ( like most skills have) isnt a reason to call a skill balanced.

With all that said ill say this

/Not signed for the hunderdth time

DeanBB · Jan 19, 2007, 08:23 PM // 20:23

Maybe if they changed the AI so that if a warrior held onto something he would draw all aggro...like a book, or gear, or something?

Xenex Xclame · Jan 19, 2007, 08:26 PM // 20:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeanBB

Maybe if they changed the AI so that if a warrior held onto something he would draw all aggro...like a book, or gear, or something?

Hey wow! thats not such a bad idea.

Fairbo · Jan 19, 2007, 08:36 PM // 20:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeanBB

No, there's no place for this in GW. I wouldn't want such a skill used against me in PvE either.

I wouldn't want it used agains me in PvE either. But here's an example of a skill I don't want to have used on me but love to use it myself. Escape. Awesome for when I'm on my ranger but annoying as hell when I'm trying to kill a ranger who uses Escape + Trolls back to full health. Similar deal here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenex Xclame

cause then we would go back to the warrior runs in endure/defy/dolyak stands there for 5 seconds, casters run in monk heals and eles nuke boom 5 seconds later all monsters dead, lets repeat on next mob.

Good point, but are you talking about one mob or multiple? If it's one you wouldn't need Taunt but multiple I see your point. Solution, tone down the durration (1..5 sec) and increase the recast time (10 sec). Once it wears off they resume their current caster magnet AI.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenex Xclame

First you say to leave the AI alone then you say add skills and make it that when the skill is used the AI targets that target?Tell me how to do that without changing the AI.

This isn't changing the AI. All it's doing is temporarily changing the target.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenex Xclame

Wrong, one monk is more then enough to keep one warrior taking heavy dmg from dieying, lets see, healing seed, Shield of Aborbtion, Protective Spirit, just to mention a few.

No, I'm right. I said a prot monk. what you described was a Protection Monk. Those are protection skills.

So far Xenex you are the only one that has replied with "valid" arguments. Thank you.

I Mean I · Jan 19, 2007, 08:39 PM // 20:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fairbo

(Warrior damage is pathetic)

I stoped reading at this point-.-

boxterduke · Jan 19, 2007, 08:42 PM // 20:42

/no thanks
I donot want to be forced to attack one target.

counciler132 · Jan 19, 2007, 09:00 PM // 21:00

Well, I for one agree with this idea. Maybe a few changes here and there, but it is a valid idea.

First of all, for PvE:

Taunt only works to draw aggro, not nessecarily keep it. Remove the timer on the target change amd make it a simple target change... dont make it so the MOB cant hit anything else. Say that a Charr Axe Fiend is attacking your monk, and you want it to stop. use taunt, and it turns and runs for you. But it is still able to decide that it wants to own your ele if it gets spiked.

PVP is a simple change too. Rather than have it FORCE a player to target you for a duration, it will simply change that player's currently selected target to you. But it wont KEEP it on you. They can still retarget your monk or w/e.

Both ideas work for the elite, only it is an AoE skill.

Fairbo · Jan 19, 2007, 09:11 PM // 21:11

updated original post to add counceler123's suggestions

Xenex Xclame · Jan 19, 2007, 09:20 PM // 21:20

Also about a none prot monk being unable to keep a ally up i disagree big time, back when the mobs did only target the tank i could easily keep my tank up in fow for example and i play a pure healing monk. ( yes i dont carry condition removal)

Savio · Jan 19, 2007, 09:25 PM // 21:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeanBB

Maybe if they changed the AI so that if a warrior held onto something he would draw all aggro...like a book, or gear, or something?

rofl.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fairbo

My problem is that there is no way for me to "pull" that agro off the casters.

Get in the way of the enemies, have your casters run past you, deal some significant amount of damage to the enemies. Problem solved - unless your casters don't know how to run or you don't know how to deal significant damage.

Fairbo · Jan 19, 2007, 09:42 PM // 21:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

Get in the way of the enemies

Easier said than done unless you have a wall you can body block them on. Try it in an open field, they will run right past you. Whole reason for my initial post.

Isileth · Jan 19, 2007, 09:47 PM // 21:47

This would be horrible! All you would ever need is one tank, 1 prot monk and then a bunch of damager dealers. Lets dumb down the game even more! Not a fan of games they impliment taunts and threat levels and the such, just makes everything to easy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fairbo

Easier said than done unless you have a wall you can body block them on. Try it in an open field, they will run right past you. Whole reason for my initial post.

Yeah they run past the big angry guy in full metal armour with a big sword to attack the guy wearing cloth at the back, it just doesnt make any sense! Warriors can still protect the backline if they know what they are doing, you just need to keep moving rather than stay in one place. Get inbetween the enemy and their target, when they move to go round you step in the way. As long as your backline knows how to kite you can keep them off them.

Diddy bow · Jan 19, 2007, 09:58 PM // 21:58

I think this is rather silly its like making a skill that forces monsters to walk over traps or stand under metor shower ¬¬
/not signed (just put mending on your monk XDXDXDXD)

Fairbo · Jan 19, 2007, 09:59 PM // 21:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

Get inbetween the enemy and their target, when they move to go round you step in the way.

Have you tested this? Does this work? I don't think so. Prove me wrong and show me a video of that tactic working and I'll be quiet about this topic.

knoll · Jan 19, 2007, 10:05 PM // 22:05

Errm have essance bond on them?

Buttermilk · Jan 19, 2007, 10:06 PM // 22:06

Why of course....
A skill that forces my monk to target an enemy while healing, would be a great addition!

/end sarcasm

Seriously, this will definitely not work in Guild Wars.
The whole point in tanking is to charge at an enemy mob, while the back line stays outside the possible aggro-range. Your suggestion might work in PvE, but definitely not in PvP.

/notsigned

Fairbo · Jan 19, 2007, 10:16 PM // 22:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buttermilk

A skill that forces my monk to target an enemy while healing, would be a great addition!

Simple fix, modify the description to say "target enemy that is not targeting an ally now targets you." Problem fixed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buttermilk

The whole point in tanking is to charge at an enemy mob, while the back line stays outside the possible aggro-range

You obviously haven't played other MMO's if that's your definition of tanking. The whole point of tanking is to take and keep the agro off your team. Also it doesn't matter if the back line stays outside the "possible" agro-range because if they did guess what, that's called "soloing". Even if they did they won't be able to do anything until the get inside the "possible" agro-range.